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Comic 27 - Victor was not the victor

28th May 2011, 6:30 AM
Victor was not the victor
Average Rating: 5 (1 votes)
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Author Notes:

Clef 28th May 2011, 6:30 AM edit delete
Clef
Things just keep getting worse for them!

In the second to last panel, that's the Red Scepter Shard in Sara's hand.

Death really holds no relevancy in Azeroth, as players can just take their spirits back to their corpses to resurrect, and same pretty much goes for the NPC and bosses since lore characters just keep coming back to life to appear in more dungeons and raids. So many come to mind. Arugal, Ragnaros, Nefarian, Onyxia, Deathwing, Kel'thuzad, Baron Rivendare, Jin'do (just to name a few) and many more were all killed in the lore at some point, but then were "oh, I was just badly beaten, not killed" even though their heads were promptly removed and turned in as a quest items.

It just seems like whatever expansion is next could just be a "revenge of malygos/illidan/c'thun or some other character you THOUGHT you defeated" kind of theme just like cata.

In my opinion, permanently killing off lore characters feels like progress, and progress makes it feel like you are making a difference in Azeroth.

Exit question: How do you like Blizz's current model for keeping important characters in the lore (and thus beyond death)? Or once you kill a named character in a raid/dungeon/quest, do you think they should remain dead in the lore? Do you think that bringing back "defeated" characters is the same as rehashing content?

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Comments:

Adamantine 28th May 2011, 7:00 AM edit delete reply
Hi Clef
To me, it ("keeping important character in the lore")'s just a cheap way to have the game running. I do understand that people need new contents so as not to get bored and that most of Warcraft gamer don't even know where the game originated (Warcraft 1,2 and 3), but still. I goes on my nerve when Blizzard chose to do something like that. I really looked forwards a Warcraft 4, something with more story that just 'eh, DW just woke up and changed the world'... I mean, with so many evil, couldn't they write something like 'so and so want to wake up the aspect of Death'? or that some want, some try to prevent them and in the long run they find themselves doing it in the place of whoever tried to do it in the first time?
... ok, found myself ranting, sorry. Anyway, to answer your question, it'd be a nice idea if some stayed dead (Ragnaros, C'thun, Magtheridon...), after all, none even now go back to kill them anymore (and nostalgy isn't that strong in WoW I found out), they'd do better close most of these Level 60 dungeons... and the 70 ones too for that matter (whoever went back to BT?) and do something about the Outland to make it revive. They could do that, why don't they?
Oh, by the way, I liked DW's son's coming ^^ Too bad for poor Onyxia.
cascool 28th May 2011, 10:17 AM edit delete reply
i totally understand why everyone wants to be the "light"
can i be the light...?
SlopDoggy 28th May 2011, 12:17 PM edit delete reply
Well, I was a late-comer, so I didn't have the opportunity to enjoy the original dungeons/raids. But imho, once you kill a character, he/she should stay dead. Pardon the pun, but it's an achievement when players finally kill the big, bad guy that the game hyped up so much. Then, 2 expansions later, they find out that the character that they spent so much time to kill is coming back, just like that, bigger and badder than before. it's like "What the hell, man?" That's just my opinion, though.
Halbor 28th May 2011, 12:27 PM edit delete reply
there are a couple cases where blizzard has explained how some endgame bosses returned from the dead, Ragnaros' defeat in molten core banished him back to the firelands. Jin'do and the zul gurub trolls were ressurected, there was quested where you had to try to prevent this from happening while you were leveling in STV, also how they could be rezzed? well you did give the zandalar their heads for a quest plus a good number of paragons of power. at least when they redid Deadmines and Shadowfang they didn't reuse Arugal and Edwin Van Cleef.
Thisguy 28th May 2011, 2:26 PM edit delete reply
Doesn't really worry me much if a Lore character comes back, so long as there is some form of explanation. As far as undead and elementals are concerned, Undead are already dead, so it couldn't have been that hard for the lich King to revive them if he wanted to, being master over death and all. And elementals, to the best of my knowledge, can only be killed in their home plane. Was confused when I heard Nefarian was back though.
Have no idea how this battle will go, he's alreday eaten them once! lol. BTW, Sara looks really cute in panel 7. Deathwing obviosly decided to start living after what happened in Love is in the air.
Guest 28th May 2011, 4:14 PM edit delete reply
Maly's not dead. I will deny it whenever it's brought up. A frikken Aspect!! Deeply psyhically wounded aspect!! How could you do that Blizz, how could you? :|

Keep 'em alive instead of reviving, cuz it makes the VG Cats joke pop to my mind:
'But, but.. I aborted you!' 'I got better'
Draco Blair 28th May 2011, 4:15 PM edit delete reply
Shoot, forgot the signature in my previous post :P
Lackinganame 28th May 2011, 4:18 PM edit delete reply
just wanted to kill some ting cute, lol this guy is ether evil or has obsessive mayhem disorder (OMD)

lol keep it up!
boobfan 28th May 2011, 5:40 PM edit delete reply
BOOOOOOOOBIES!
Steffi 28th May 2011, 8:20 PM edit delete reply
Reusing old, supposedly dead, villans is a tired old technique for avoiding the effort of thinking up something new. It may have been a surprise twist the first couple of times it was used but now it's just pure lazyness.
Kaiser 28th May 2011, 9:38 PM edit delete reply
Well I can't see Blizzard re-using the big bads of each expansion again (aka Illidan and the Lich King) as bosses (though references aren't out of the question).

Some bosses lore-wise do make sense in coming back. Ragnaros as an example - we didn't kill him, we just banished him back to his plane of fire or whatever it's called (he was also summoned too early so that explains why he was weaker). Onyxia wasn't brought back lore-wise (I think), just for the sake of having something to fight.

Though I have wondered why the hell Deathwing just didn't completely destroy Stormwind and Orgrimaar the first time he attacked...

And damn, sign me up for pretending to be the light xD.
Coffinshaker 28th May 2011, 10:53 PM edit delete reply
LOL! Clef, you're too funny! Awesome comic this week!
Aseroth 29th May 2011, 8:08 PM edit delete reply
Actually, Neferion and Onyxia were ressurected as undead, not brought back to life, While deathwing never actually died, just faked his own death little the scheming little lizard he is. Unfortunately since much of the lore is based around necromancy, it's sometimes too easy to bring back the dead. While it can be a little annoying in my mind, it can make for good story if done right and for good reason.
Sethala 30th May 2011, 3:00 PM edit delete reply
As others have said, most of the lore bosses coming back are justified, and anything that's already been killed once in WoW usually has a quest showing how they came back. Also, some of the bosses were specifically not killed (such as Ragnaros).

As for what I think about Blizz re-using bosses, I kind of like the idea. Recurring villains aren't necessarily bad, and personally it seems that Cataclysm is less reusing content and more going back and getting nostalgic about vanilla WoW. YMMV may vary on that, of course.
Rokas 30th May 2011, 3:53 PM edit delete reply
I have to agree with you (and others here apparently), keeping the big bads you killed off as permanently dead would be better. Nefarian, for instance, should be dead with a capital D. So should Onyxia. So should a LOT of things that need to stay dead. I say this even though I am a latecomer (only got into WoW midway through WotLK's patch/update cycle) I would rather have certain baddies just farking die already. Because some of them are nasty, nasty A-holes and you just want htem dead and WHY THE HELL IS MAGATHA GRIMTOTEM ALLOWED TO LIVE? SLAY HER! SLAY THAT TRAITOROUS BI- Er... *Ahem* Sorry. Sore spot there.

I'm sure game wise it makes for more content. Lore wise, it ruins the story, and that's no fun. I say this because when/if they finally make Magatha Grimtotem a boss somewhere I am going to take my hunter and kill her. Kill her dead, and then cut her head off and use it as a trophy. ...Okay, that's my character talking. She's rather P.O.'d at the whole "murdering tauren in Thunder Bluff" thing.
Clef 30th May 2011, 4:25 PM edit delete reply
Clef
I don't remember Ragnaros being only merely banished after the raids against him in Molten Core @60. He even left Sulferon behind. It felt to me like they kind'a just wrote him back in at the beginning of cata. Of course this is coming from someone who hasn't read any of the novels, (i.e. The Shattering) so I imagine I'm missing a big chunk of lore there. But in-game there was nothing in vanilla I remember seeing.

@Rokas. That was EXACTLY how I felt about Kael'thas' treacherous ass. Luckily he got what he deserved and looks like he is STAYING dead in the lore. When I cut off his head in Magister's Terrace, I think I kept it in my bag for a good 10 days or so just for the enjoyment before finally turning it in. I don't think poor Sara ever got the smell out of the Imbued Netherweave bag she had it in. That was the first bag to get replaced in WotLK.

...yes, he is/was my most despised lore character. HATED him....been wanting him dead since Warcraft 3. I would make fun of him relentlessly in this comic, but A) he's dead, and B) There's no way I could make fun of him that hasn't already been done in the "Supervillians of Azeroth" Machinima....one reason that series was so darn great.
Lllira 1st Jun 2011, 5:28 AM edit delete reply
Kael'thas isn't dead. Magister's Terrace was merely a setback! Kael is my favorite lore character. >.>

He is totally Aethas Sunreaver in disguise. Think about it. Sunreaver, Sunstrider. Kael'thas, Aethas? Reallllly? Coincidence? I think not!
Sacridshadow 1st Jun 2011, 9:11 AM edit delete reply
Oh god, Deathwing's a pimp now. A HOLY pimp.

In responce to your question, I think that lore characters who die should stay dead, especially if the player kills them. There are certain instances where it is possible for them to come back.

For example, (and I don't know if he died in Warcraft II) Medihve dissapeared, and later came back with news about the Burning Legion's return, though he should've known what was going to happen. (His Warcraft III model looks better than his WoW model. Red and black do not look good on him.)

the second instance is Tyrande Whisperwind, where she collapsed the bridge to stop the undead from following the blood elves and the rest of her forces. While the characters thought she was dead (and if not by the river, by the undead themselves) she managed to survive and continue the fight.

Not sure about most of the characters in Warcraft's lore, there are so many and most aren't even killed, despite doing so in the game (it's just for game mechanics. lol). In fact, game mechanics is the only reason they wouldn't die in the lore (ntil later, of course.)

Another way to return would be because of necromancers, paladins, or the Narru.
Aramir 1st Jun 2011, 10:47 AM edit delete reply
yeah death is a pretty fickle thing in this game but easily the worst NPC for that crap is kael'thas you kill him in the tempest keep raid but then you find out being killed was apperently "just a setback" then you kill him in MT he has a full minute monolgue AFTER the killing blow then "dies" you turn his head in so you can enter the instance on heroic and kill him a third time because having your head removed and turned in apparently is not as leathal a blow as it might seem...... WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG HERE???
Nightwill 1st Jun 2011, 10:26 PM edit delete reply
Ragnaros was defeated, not killed. Even if the mortals thought he was killed they have explained you cant kill an elemental lord, thats why the windseeker's power was kept in bindings and the like.

Nefarion and Ony are dead. Their Dad raided Stormwind, took the heads back, and resurrected them as zombie dragon...things.

I think Kael got the short end fo the stick when it came to story (Illidan too) but I do think they should stay dead.

@Rokas = Magatha is in 1000 Needles, shes far too powerful for you to handle so after you set her free (I wish they woudlnt force us to do moronic things for exp) she leaves. Im certain she will be back ... and I want her to be a Cho'gal level big bad. She, and the Tauren, deserve it.

@Steffi I agree with you and their other big lazy trick is 'who is goign to betray you that you thought was your friend'.

@Halbor Actually you helped resurrect Bloodlord Mandokir Alli side. I remember that quest chain well cause when the gnome warlock said he was going to experiement with troll voodoo/shadow magic to resurrect some unknown troll I commented to my guild it would be better to slip behind him and unleash some holy wrath now instead of later.
http://altaholic-warcraft.blogspot.com/
George 2nd Jun 2011, 1:13 AM edit delete reply
Personally, I think ultimately it's Blizzard's lore but players deserve a really good explanation if someone isn't staying dead. KT/Naxx get to come back because so few people killed him that doing a Scourge expansion without the Lich King's most prominent servant would be a giant middle finger to everyone except the 1% or so of players who killed him at 60. ZG gets a pass because the quest chain was awesome and the actual instance was totally redone. On the other hand, Kael should be dead because there was neither a hint that he was ready for defeat nor a real need for him to come back- if Sunwell Plateau had to happen an unseen lieutenant of his taking over his forces and aligning them with the Legion would have been better than him returning (but still kinda stupid), and ZA really deserved to be fully rebooted or left alone. That being said, I understand the impulse to let the majority of players experience old content, but I think it would take less development time- and earn less community hate- if Blizz figured out a way to let players with current-expansion spells and talents get balanced with Vanilla-era 60s/BC 70s/LK 80s and replace current-tier gear with tier-appropriate gear for any old raid (preferably by putting them in level 1 gear while they got temporary versions of the gear players would have had access to when the raid in question was released, or that was later added to lower tiers than the raid's, or that dropped from bosses the player had personally beaten and wasn't Legendary unless they had the Feat for owning it, plus scrolls for the enchants available at the time of the raid's release), and then turning this system into a "legacy mode" setting that let people run old raids roughly the way they were run in the "old days", except with the added composition flexibility of subsequent patches and some way to compensate for that fact that certain abilities added after the relevant expansion totally break certain fights (I once attempted to tank Twin Emps on my DK. That lasted right up until I tried to use an ability, which was about 2 seconds in.) Sure, that would be complicated- I can think of at least 6 trouble spots just sitting here writing this- but it would also be awesome, and be way better than them spending even more time making new versions of old raids with mostly BS lore.
Clef 3rd Jun 2011, 4:33 PM edit delete reply
Clef
That would be a good idea.

BTW what happened when you tried to tank twin emps?
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